Lately I have been discussing open theism with some friends with an emphasis on molinism (or middle knowledge). I came across a good slide presentation which goes through the basic tenants of openness and gives a good defense of the classical position. You can find the slide show here. Chris Poteet goes through all this pretty quick, but it is great for an overview. It takes a minute to load.
I thought this would be especially good because some of you visiters are molinists and there has been some good discussions going on in a few of the comment boxes.
Please continue to discuss and work through these different doctrines. We are called to "be transformed by the renewal of [our] mind[s]." (Romans 12:2) Let us be semper reformanda, always reforming.
Soli Deo Gloria!
15 comments:
Molinism is one of those doctrines that are held by those who do not keep their noses in the Word of God.
Psalm 147:5... 1 John 3:20... Psalm 139:4... Acts 15:18...
The teaching is clear and plain. Oh the wickedness of man to question such a key part of God's perfect character.
Open theism is indeed a dangerous doctrine that is clearly unscriptural.
However, open theism should not be confused with molinism! Molinism is not open theism. These positions are quite different. In fact, one of the best refutations of open theism is found in William Craig's book The Only Wise God. Currently Craig is one of the best proponents of middle knowledge. Before criticizing this doctrine, one should be careful to see that he understands it correctly. Straw men burn far too easily.
While open theism denies God's prescience, Molinism affirms that God does indeed know the future exhaustively. Each of the verses that Rand pointed out make perfect sense in the Molinist's view of God's foreknowledge.
Middle knowledge is not necessarily an Arminian doctrine. It fits also in a Calvinist's view of soteriology. In fact, the doctrine of middle knowledge might help the Calvinist give a better explanation of free agency.
"It fits also in a Calvinist's view of soteriology. In fact, the doctrine of middle knowledge might help the Calvinist give a better explanation of free agency."
LOL...I think you'll have a rough time finding a Calvinist who will agree with that statement Daniel. Better leave defending the calvinist positions to the calvinists.
I have no need of open theism or so-called middle knowledge; the Bible is way too clear:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 46:10)
B-bye open theism and molinism!
Rand,
Do you know the difference between middle knowledge and open theism? These positions are very different! So far from what I'm hearing, I don't think you're familiar with Molinism. Open theism denies that God knows the future. Molinism holds that God does know the future. Before you criticize my position, make sure that you understand it.
Isaiah 46:10 doesn't even address the doctrine of middle knowledge. This verse simply says that God announces or declares to His prophets the future. In the context, Isaiah is referring to the fact that God has made known that Cyrus will end the exile by sending Judah back to Palestine. Thus, Judah should be confident that God will do as Isaiah has prophesied since that is God's plan and accomplishing His plan brings Him pleasure.
If you want to address some passages that actually deal with middle knowledge, read 1 Sam. 23:1-12 or Matt. 11:20-24. Explain to me how God knew what these people would do if placed within the different circumstances.
Whew!
Daniel, first let me clarify, that when I said "b-bye to open theism and molinism", I didn't say they were the same thing, but I was saying that Isaiah 46:10 thrashes both heresies. I believe I can mirror your charge: "before you criticize my position, make that you understand it.
Now I have to say that your "interpretation of Isaiah 46:10 is the most liberal, eyes wide shut interpretation I've ever had the displeasure of reading. The Lord DECLARES the END from the BEGINNING. His counsel shall stand (the one he determined from the ancient times), He will do all His pleasure. This goes way beyond the specific prophecy about Cyrus.
I would deal with the passages you use as "proof" of middle knowledge, but considering the above, what would possibly be the point.
Until you come to understand and accept the doctrines of grace, poor Daniel, you will waste away in all sorts of carnal, nonsense doctrines.
I'm done here.
Rand,
Calling someone's position "liberal," "carnal," and "nonsense" does not refute it.
By saying that in Is. 46:10 Isaiah was especially referring to Cyrus, I did not mean that this is only prophecy that God has ever declared to His prophets. In the context, Isaiah is referring to that specific prophecy about Cyrus as being an indication of God's ability to foretell the future. Of course, there are many prophecies that indicate this. Isaiah is pointing this out to show how Yahweh is superior to any of the false gods of Babylon. These gods can't foretell the future. But the LORD can!
The passage simply doesn't talk about the issue of middle knowledge that we were discussing.
A couple of verses... (all in ESV)...
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
"and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. " (1 Peter 2:8)
So much for open theism.
Cheers!
I'm not sure that God's saying "if you had done x, y would have happened," is a reason to believe that it was at some point part of the future that God knew. It's just wisdom; I don't have foreknowledge, but I know that if you smash your fingertip with a hammer, you will say 'Ouch.' (Or, you will at least feel pain.)
That's not middle foreknowledge, that's just a simple understanding of natural law; cause and effect.
I admit, however, that I don't know much about middle knowledge, and didn't have time to look up those verses. But I will. I will say at the outset though, that I don't think there's room scripturally for a view that says God knows all possible outcomes, but doesn't know *for sure* exactly what will come.
Aron,
You wrote, "I will say at the outset though, that I don't think there's room scripturally for a view that says God knows all possible outcomes, but doesn't know *for sure* exactly what will come."
Molinism teaches that God knows with certainty which outcome will occur. Not only that, but God has planned before creation which outcome will occur. I think that you're confusing middle knowledge with open theism here. I recommend reading William Craig's book The Only Wise God in order to get a better understanding of it. BTW, I'm also currently blogging about it on my blog.
You also wrote,"If you had done x, y would have happened." Middle knowledge is actually kinda the exact opposite of this phrase. It's more like "If y would have happened, you would had done x." This is more difficult sort of knowledge.
Perhaps, but it does mean that you can't say "God doesn't predestin people to do certain things", because clearly some were.
Cheers
So then how do you explain chapter 9 of Romans and Acts 13:48?
Another thing is this...
Based on what you are saying, then other things in the Bible don't apply to us either. And we could also say that when Christ said "If you Love me, you will keep my commandments" it only applied to the disciples.
I think not.
Frank,
These passages need to understood within their literary contexts. It's real to easy to quote prooftexts back and forth, but that doesn't get much accomplished in the long run.
Romans 9 needs to be understood in light of chapters 10 and 11. Here Paul's primary purpose to deal with objections to the gospel in light of the rejection of Israel.
Acts 13:48 needs to read in light of v.45-46. Paul and Barnabas had just been kicked out the Jewish synagogue and forced to preach the gospel to Gentiles. Thus, Paul quotes Is. 49:6 to the Jews to show that even the "Gentiles were appointed for eternal life." That was the shock of the statement.
Warhdsonforehd,
I think if you had a strong conviction about something you wouldn't need to search anymore about that subject.
Example: We have a strong conviction that Christ died and rose again for our sins, we know this, no question about it. Same would be true about what you believe on election, we can sit here and tossel ideas around, but when it comes down to it. Do you really believe it, have you searched scripture on it, and have you prayed about it?
My response to daniel, my point still stands. By stating that you need to take Romans 9 in light of Romans 10 & 11, you make it sound like it's not applicable to how God operates today, or how it even applies to us! I'm still confused on how your point answers my question.
Cheers!
Sorry, what I mean Daniel, is I'm confused on how your response negates my point. :)
Cheers
Post a Comment