Sunday, November 27, 2005

Julianne's Own...

Top signs that you can tell I'm a calvinist:

I lay awake at night thinking up possible theories on lapsarianism.

My car has a "honk if you think C.H. Spurgeon was hot" bumper sticker.

I bring up Scripture passages which make people cringe.

I go to the local Christian bookstore and turn most (!) of the theology books towards the flow of customers (after I dust them off).

I jump up and down when I "discover" a Christian music CD with God-glorifying lyrics.

I'm the first in line for the latest 'Modern Reformation' Magazine.

I actually think the puritans were awesome people.

I give copies of 'Debating Calvinism' for Christmas gifts.

My best thoughts of God are after reading Isaiah and Romans.

I cringe at the words "emerging" or "middle knowledge."

33 comments:

Daniel Mann said...

I do not believe that you are a true Calvinist and heres why.

1) Which view of lapsarianism do you adhere too? John calvin held to supralapsarianism; it is evident that the 'Westminister Confession of Faith' asserts an infralapsarianism doctrine of predestination.(Which is to the left of your screen)

2) I have seen your car, C.H Spurgeon could not have fit in your car. He believed a preacher must weigh over 3oolbs to be able to preach. (Forgive me C.H. Spurgeon) but he and Dwight L Moody joked about their weight. Besides I am a Calvinist and I don't think he is hot. But I read some Spurgeon every day; to keep the Arminians away.

3) All scripture seems to make people cringe this day and age

4) You would BUY those dear precious Theology books and READ THEM. At least leave the dust on them it makes them more valuable

5) There's music CDs out there that are God-glorifying?

6) You would have 'modern Reformation' delivered to your doorstep. And you would support them by sending them at least $25 a month, therefore you would receive your bonus CD of the month. Hey, did you get this months, it comes with a CD celebrating 25 years?

7) The puritans were Awesome people!!! You did not even have to think about that one. (I might have to let you have a point on this one)

8) You would only give 'Debating Calvinism' as gifts if you ripped out Dave Hunt's unbiblical responses. oops! I guess you wouldn't have anything left, but James White writing.

9) You would have your best thoughts about God reading John 3;16 and the big three Mattew 23;37, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2Peter 3:9.
Cause you know their propper context.

10) You would want to spit at the word's 'emerging' and 'middle knowledge'

See, I have the analytical mind an the attitude of a true Calvinst.

Daniel Mann said...

....of a true calvinist

chris said...

Ignore Daniel.

As I said, I'm going to add a link to this. (It'll be on the asides part).

Julianne said...

Daniel,

1) A calvinsist brain is always reeling with new (old and unoriginal) ideas.

2) I don't know what to say. All I know is that no one has ever honked.

3) True.

4) Why would I buy doubles of the same book?

5) I've never jumped up and down for a CD.

6) No, that would be what a HYPER-calvinist would do.

7) Good.

8) I'd leave Hunt's arguments in. Why take away more proof that calvinism is biblical theology? I would let his arguments speak for themselves. No need to hide them. They fall when held next to Scripture. :)

9) Maybe.

10) No, I'd chew them up and spit 'em out!

Daniel said...

The emerging church has nothing to do with middle knowledge. Several proponents of middle knowledge have been rather very critical of the emerging church movement.

Julianne said...

I didn't mean for them to be related. Thanks for the clarification though, Daniel.

How've you been?

stephen said...

You know, this is what hardcore pet lovers do. And maybe tea drinkers. But its real cute. I think I could tell you are a calvinist just by listening to you. And I'm real glad you don't have a "Honk if you think C.H. Spurgeon was hot" bumper sticker. That would be like me putting a "Honk if you think Ella Fitzgerald was hot" sticker on my car.

No worries.

stephen said...

I think Johnathan Edwards was pretty hot.

Rand said...

I bring up Scripture passages which make people cringe.

I cringe at the words "emerging" or "middle knowledge."

LOL! We're cut from the same cloth Julianne!!!

:-)

Mark said...

A nice and humorous (but true) list. Good job!

Frank Martens said...

Julianne...

In regards to your response to daniel mann's #5... 5) I've never jumped up and down for a CD.

You've never jumped up and down when there's a new worship or hymns album released? Not that the hymns (or worship songs) are new, but that some band actually released it is what I mean

Frank Martens said...

Like

4-Him Hymns
or
Passion Hymns

:)

Julianne said...

Frank,

Okay, I HAVE jumped up and down for a CD. Like the Bridges Hymns, the ones you mentioned, and lots of others actually. (I just had to come up with something in response to Daniel!)

Cheers!

Daniel Mann said...

Julianne

6) That was good, A good comeback. I concur that you are truly a Calvinist. You put up a good fight. Preciseness is the name of your game.

Chris Poteet
"Ignore Daniel"
I am hurt!
We calvinists get ignored enough.
lighten up! You must be a Calvinist as well.

Hey franky
5) Yes it was just some of Julianne's satire and sarcasm. She actualy recommended those CDs to me a while back. However, one song on one of those CDs, troubles me. what does "Jesus is spinning around us" mean"? And at the end of that song the singer prays and says, thank you Father Jesus. Was he calling the Father and Jesus the same persons(like a Oneness Penticostal) or was it just a slip up? It is in an open forum. Maybe I need to lighten up! I am afraid that if we are not precise we will lose our grip on the glorious gospel. After all no one gets into heresies over night but by little steps. In the words of C.H. Spurgeon " little by littles one gets into heresies...".

stephen said...

That hymns CD is excellent, i agree. I must say the whole "father spinning around us" deal is bit weird. It does betray some pentacostal motives. I think in context, though, he really didn't mean it in the "real" sense of the word, like the father IS really spinning around us. It is strange, I must agree. Also, don't most Christians regard Jesus as their heavenly father?

At least these worship leaders really have their heart and lyrics in total worship and praise. You can't say that about many music groups these days.

van.diesel said...

"honk if you think C.H. Spurgeon was hot" ... HAHAHAHAHAH!! This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Nicely done, and thanks for the chuckles.

Funniest thing I've seen all day: pic of your dog reading Grudem.

Honk! Honk!

Daniel Mann said...

Stefunk
On the Hymns CD which I went and listen to again I still can't tell what he means, the context of the song does not shed any light on the subject. Therefore I think it would be subjective to try and say what we think he did mean. However,The rest of the CD is excellent. So far as the worship leaders, I can't judge their hearts but I can judge their lyrics, and the rest is good and sound.(Mostly old Hymns)

You said..."don't most Christian regard Jesus as their Heavenly Father".
I sure hope not. For that is a old heresy called Modalism.
"Modalism: The heretical teaching that holds that God is not raally three distinct persons , but only one person who appears to people in different "modes" at different times." (14C.1)-Systematic Theology,Wayne Grudem

I could say much(surprise) but I would recommend reading Wayne Gruden's 'Systematic Theology' chapter 14, and perticularly 14c for he has a chapter on Modalism.
I would also sugest to all to read Dr. Robert Morey's book 'The Trinty evidence and issues' it is an opulent work of 587pages. He Traces the history and the Theological issues surrounding this foundational doctrine.

...that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightned, that you may know what is the hope to which He has called you, what are the riches, of His glorious inheritance in the saints...Ephesians 1:17-18

Frank Martens said...

d-mann & stefunk,

Which Hymns CD? I listed two of them...

I'm willing to be the "thank you Father Jesus" part was a slip up, because I've slipped up like that before, instead of saying "Father and Jesus" I somehow slurred them together. But then again, it could be intentional.

Also, I'm not saying that EVERY song on the Passion CD I like, I think the spinning around one I could really care less for, but I'm still jumping up and down for the rest of the songs.

But let me also take this opportunity to say... well actually I'm woundering if I should blog about this... nah let me say that I listen to a lot of "Christian" music, good and bad. But I listen to it none-the-less, mostly because I like to listen to music, and really I can only, under a good conciense, listen to Christian music.

Sure some songs are really really really theologically week, but usually I skip over those, tune them out, or edit them out of a cd (by making a new copy or something).

Anyway, just to make sure, while we should be critical and on guard about things, don't let the criticism keep you from the other great things that could be coming forth from something (unless it's very clear that, whatever it is, God doesn't want you listening, doing, reading, etc... it)

Blah... ya'll know this, back to my hole in the wall :)

Daniel said...

Julianne,

Thanks for asking. I've been good. Haven't blogged that much recently. Got kinda bored with it.

Your list is funny. I'll make my own anti-Calvinist list and post it on my blog.

Antonio said...

Middle Knowledge is a very good view. It needs a little work, but very good.

But the fatalism of Calvinism...

"I will not hesitate... to confess with Augustine that the will of God is necessity, and that everything is necessary which he has willed...The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should" (John Calvin)

"God wills all things that come to pass. It is within His power to stop whatever might come to pass... God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin." (R.C. Sproul).

"Foreordination means God's sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. he decides and causes all things to happen that do happen ... He has foreordained everything 'after the counsel of his will': the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist - even sin" (Edwin Palmer)

"Whatever is done in time is according to his decree in eternity" (John Gill)

"Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God." (Loraine Boettner)

"Nothing comes to pass contrary to his decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which he abhors and forbids, occurs 'by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.'" (W.G.T. Shedd)

"Not as much as a fly can settle upon you without the Creator's bidding..." (A.W. Pink)

"...not only ...did his omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so. (A.W. Pink, emphasis
in original)

I would just not be comfortable saying that God was the first cause (within his all-encompassing decree) to my heinous sins. REMEMBER, as Calvin has stated. The will of God is NECESSITY. All that comes to pass has been willed by God. I have sin (and do sin) because God has determined each and every one of my sin acts in the "dreadful" decree:

"The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he has so ordained by his decree." (John Calvin)

Frank Martens said...

Well the propblem Antonio is that you are somehow correlating calvinism with saying that God is a direct cause of my sin.

But no where in the Bible is that taught and nowhere did Calvin teach that.

So I don't know how you drew that line.

God doesn't HAVE to make us sin, we do it naturally, it's our nature. He just has to let us go, meaning like letting a dog go loose, it just does whatever.

Calvinism says God choose a human and keeps that human from sinning and shows them the way to grace.

whew

Antonio said...

Hi Frank. I suppose I could make a syllogism based upon the above mentioned Calvinist quotes.

The will of God is necessity
God willed for man to fall into sin
God wills all things that come to pass
I sin
---------------
Therefore God caused me to sin

Antonio

My blog has a series on James 2:14ff going on. 3 posts in the series so far.

Free Grace Theology Blog

Antonio said...

BTW, Julianne. Dave Hunt is not Middle Knowledge. His view is simple foreknowledge

(You may have already known that)

Antonio

Julianne said...

Antonio,

Your syllogism has a problem. Logically, you cannot substitute a word into the conclusion which was not in any of the premises. You will need to define "wills" and "caused."

Daniel said...

Everyone in the discussion agrees that God does not sin. That means that nothing God does is ever wrong.

It is also agreed upon that in some way God must will for sin to occur. In other words, evil would not exist unless God desired for it to exist for some reason (manifesting His glory, free will, etc).

Of course, God's reason for allowing evil to exist is debated. In my own opinion, the Calvinist theodicy links God too closely to sin, and thus needs to be revised.

Reformed Centurion said...

Antonio,

Julianne is right. I take it that what you are saying in your conclusion is that God is responsible for sin, as in he deserves the blame for sin. However, what is contained in your premises is that God wills sin, as in he directs events such as sin. Nowhere in your syllogism do you make the argument that because God directs events such as sin it leads to God deserving the blame for sin. That is how I interpret your argument, tell me if I am wrong. You contend that because God wills sin he must also be assigned blame for man’s sins. If you hold that view I would direct you to Romans 9:19 & 20

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Antonio said...

Ok.

In my conclusion substitute:

God has necessitated me to sin

Antonio

Antonio said...

The will of God is necessity
God willed for man to fall into sin
God wills all things that come to pass
I sin
---------------
Therefore God necessitated me to sin in each and every act of sin I commit.

What God wills necessarily comes to pass. God wills all things that come to pass. I commit acts of sin which must be included in "all things that come to pass" which were things that God "willed" which will IS necessity. Therefore my specific acts of sin were necessitated by God's own will.

Remember:

"Foreordination means God's sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. he decides and causes all things to happen that do happen"

God decided and caused me to sin.

Antonio

Oh, BTW,

Your reference to Romans 9 (which of course, the interpretation of which is up for considerable debate) protects God from blame for His exact foreordination and determination of each and every sin I commit like the fact (!) that a man holding another man at gunpoint in order for him to rob a bank for him is guiltless for he is not the one really robbing the bank: the man at gunpoint is.

Julianne said...

Antonio,

There are many issues here we
could discuss. One for now: is there a specific reason you are refraining from using "willed" in your conclusion?

Antonio said...

The will of God is necessity, says Augustine and John Calvin.

God has willed everything that comes to pass and will come to pass.

If something comes to pass, we can make a few observations according to Calvinism:

God willed and determined it.
No other course of action could have been committed.

My sin is at God's "bidding" says A.W. Pink.

God determined each and every one of my specific acts of sin. My behavior has been necessitated by God's will.

My syllogism is clear. It is using the words of the Calvinists.

Each and every act, whether sinful or not, has been necessitated by the will and determination of God in His all-encompassing "dreadful" decree.

The syllogism is open and shut.

Antonio

Julianne said...

Antonio,

I agree with every statement you posted, except for the word "dreadful." What is truly dreadful is a god who doesn't sovereignly ordain everything that comes to pass.

Righteous Sinner said...

Ok, I have to jump in.

Have you not already heard of the ways in which God “causes” something to occur? Secondary causes? Positive and negative causation? Certainly you have? If not, then you need to look into this as it is completely logical and absolutely answers any “supposed” difficulty. If you have heard, then you either do not understand or choose to ignore for the sake of building a straw man argument that you hope causes others to be appalled with your misrepresentation of Calvinism. We need to be about truth, and this requires truthfully representing the views we argue against. If you have not heard these explanations then you need to look further, and I’d be happy to help. If you have heard these clarifications and desire to continue misrepresenting Calvinism then you really ought to reexamine your motives, and recognize a pursuit for truth will always involve truthful representation of your opponent’s beliefs.

Take some time and look into how God may be the original cause, and yet cause in such a way that man freely acts according to his own sinful desires and is thus justly judged. This is not a contradiction. Two clear examples in scripture are Joseph’s brothers (As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good – Gen 50:20) and Acts description of those who crucified Christ (as you yourselves know-- 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. – Acts 2:22b-23). Combine this with Romans 1 describing God negatively causing by removing His hand of restraint. It is important to make these distinctions, because for God to positively cause our sin (which He does not, and which you imply Calvinism teaches) would eliminate His ability to be just, and thus destroy His holiness.

One thing I do not like about e-mail and blogging is my inability to communicate my tone. Please do not take this as some harsh yelling or me being mean-spirited. I suppose I could put a bunch of happy faces in to help, but that’s just too cutesy. Anyway, I say this without anger and with a loving desire for a pursuit of truth – which always involves accurately communicating both sides.

Micah said...

When I'm in a Christian bookstore I sometimes pick up as many Greg Boyd books as I can without looking suspicious and carry them over to the science fiction section.